Iron deficiency? how to correct?

This topic contains 25 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Driverinthedank 8 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #41440

    whocares
    Participant

    Using vegamatrix in 70/30 coco mix. With og tea. Seeing this issue. I hand water and get runoff. I dont really use ph products, the matrix mix always comes out around 6.2-6.4

    I did foliar feed the quick and hard yesterday and did put some seaweed in it as well.

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    #41444

    Colorado Kid
    Participant

    So my first thought is that you may have a potassium deficiency, in the second picture, you can see some of the older leaves very dark in the center and yellowing from the outside of the leaf in. Nitrogen gives more of an even fade over the leaf and starts on newer growth first. Magnisium deficiencies can kinda look the same, though. Not sure if you got a lock out or deficiency, what’s the feed schedule, pot size, last flush, light size?

    #41449

    LightSpeedGrows
    Keymaster

    also when you foliar fed did your plants have nutrients to uptake? did you feed them at the same time as used hard and quick?

    #41453

    whocares
    Participant

    Feeding schedule is everyday. R.o. water with vegamatrix grow,bloom, boost, amp-it. plants are pretty big so their on the week 5 formula(10ml grow, 8ml bloom, ~8ml boost, 15ml primezyme, 2ml amp-it. right around 6.2ph

    OG tea 1x a week

    2x foliar feeding of hard n quick each week

    pots are 2 gal. netted baskets.

    last flush was about 2 weeks ago when i first started using the vegamatrix.

    lights are 1000 mh

     

    pic is what they look like today.

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    #41455

    whocares
    Participant

    also i did check the runoff and i know for coco that isnt an exact science but it tested 1600ppm and 7.5ph.

    #41456

    whocares
    Participant

    so after considering my issue: bright yellow new growth, high runoff ppm and with the ph being questionable

    Im going to flush with straight ro water until i see the ppm drop to 500. Then im going to water with vegamatrix 10 grow, 8 bloom, 5 boost, 2 amp-it. hoping for about 800ppm on that solution and running off when im done.

     

    Another question i have is say during an average veg week. when the plants are big but you havent flipped yet. say your watering with a 800-900 ppm solution and the plants are looking good. What would you expect the run off ppm to be?

    #41457

    whocares
    Participant

    UPDATE: ok so i flushed plants down to 500 ppm. took about 1-1.5 gallons. the ph of the runoff read 7.1

    Made 8ml grow, 4ml bloom, 5ml boost, 10ml primezyme and 2ml amp-it. ph’d to 6.0 it took about a gallon to get the runoff to match the 600ppm of the solution.

    But the runoff is still testing 7.1ph

    i also took 1oz of coco and 2.5oz of ro water and after 20 minutes it tested 7.3

    #41458

    Colorado Kid
    Participant

    Sounds like you did all the right things, are your plants using all the water everyday? I guess they could being smaller pots and all. Be sure you let your coco dry out and get some oxygen to the roots. I feel like it may be more important, or at least anecdotally, that The dry phase is more important with VegaMatrix line. I didn’t seem to have the same issues with synthetics the last time. In flower you don’t want to let your girls droop, from lack of water, but the pots do really need to be much lighter than after watering. When in the perfect zone your leaves will be pointing up, reaching for the light.

    #41459

    whocares
    Participant

    lol youd think they were in the perfect zone. look at them point to the lights

    Look at em

    #41460

    Colorado Kid
    Participant

    Just reading back over your information again, I have been pHing down to 5.5-5.8 in my coco, to allow for that upward drift, my run-off comes out between 6.12-6.56. If you want to stay true veganic you can use apple cider vinegar. I’m not the only one here to do that. Be sure to check the new feed chart in the cannabis cultivation section, what I have been feeding my girls in veg. Pro-Tek 5 ml/gal (optional), Grow- 12 ml/gal, Bloom-7 ml/gal, Boost-7 ml/gal, Prime-10 ml/gal, Amp It- 2.0 ml/gal, plus OG Tea 7 ml/gal powder measured in a graduated shot glass. Mix it up, pH down to 5.5-5.8. That seemed to get my ladies in good health. I have one plant that is still a little on the yellow side, but otherwise growing healthy, it take a couple 2-3 days before you can see the color fade in.

    #41461

    LightSpeedGrows
    Keymaster

    Hello Whocares,

    I just got off the phone with kyle for the day and him and I both agree that its most likely the PH and you should  try lowering the PH of the input water and then mix nutrients also just to check you are doing a drain to waste and not re feeding with circulated nutrients?

    As always LightSpeedGrows,

    Have a great growing day with a feel good vibe!

    #41472

    Colorado Kid
    Participant

    I’m glad to see that my train of thought was on track with you and Kyle, Lightspeed.

    #41476

    whocares
    Participant

    kyle said one rinse 5.5ph with zyme only. and get back to him.

    did that used water and zyme at 5.5ph. the very last bit of runoff measured 650ppm on one test platn and 350ppm on another test plant. Both ph at 7.5.

     

    Tried recalibrating the ph meter and the input water tested 5.3 and the runoff tested 7.3

     

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    #41482

    whocares
    Participant

    YES it is drain to waste

    Ok so i think we got a handle on things.

    I think the issue was 2 fold.

    1. not using the newest feeding schedule.

    2. foliar feeding with 20ml bioweed along with using hard-n-quick at standard strength.

    i believe this caused a buildup up of higher ppm in the coco along with foliar feeding to much potassium and thus locking out iron.

    when we didnt see the ph budging and realizing its probably potassium toxicitity in the plant and not in the media, we decided the best action would be to completly flush the plants.

    It took 5-8 gallons per 2 gal pot, using 250ppm tap water ph’d to 5.6-6.0.

    Each plants runoff now reads between 270-300ppm and 6.0-6.4ph.

    I know tap water sucks and we didnt want to use it but the r.o just wasnt going to get the job done. For future issues were gonna get a big boy filter that will provide more water. Atleast tommorow is tea day.

     

    Knowing everything is flushed we feel we should top each plant off now with a mild ph’d nutrient solution of:

    8ml grow

    4ml bloom

    4ml boost

    5 ml zyme

    2.5ml amp-it (extra for the iron defeciency)

     

    and no foliar feeding for the nexts 7-10 days.

     

     

    #41483

    whocares
    Participant

    edit: i think we may foliar with amp it to get some iron in the plants. ph of runoff solution came out to 450ppm and 63ish ph

    #41487

    Colorado Kid
    Participant

    Awesome sauce! I actually hit a couple of mine with to low of pH, you can see the last few pics in my thread, it really only did damage while the soil was freshly wet, but it did a number on my haze cross. I thought it was over feeding at first, then when I was looking at pH pics it all made sense. As soon as the coco/peat/perlite mix dried out some, they seemed to rebound. Will have new pics tomorrow the first day of 11/13.

    #41497

    Driverinthedank
    Participant

    Question is, are these plants in veg or first week or so of bloom? It looks like to me your issue is to high of ph then to much of bloom. Ph does best for soil or coco at 5.5-5-8. Yes cannabis can grow in soil and water at up to 7.0 but the environment has to remain stable at that. So ph low in order to counter balance. Checking runoff for ph and ppm is a complete waste of time, that is just a recent technique used in order to sell magazines. I have never checked ph or ppm of runoff, no need and doesn’t work. Depending on drain to waste system being used, that as well is a complete waste of time to check as well. Check before, not after.  Just because water comes out at bottom at a level doesn’t mean the water left in soil is at the same level cause it’s not. Also with iron deficiency the leaf turns pale while the veins remain green. If this is first start of flower, sometimes plants do that because the growth rate is out performing the chlorophyll rate being made. But after a week or so of flower it will catch up. For veg formula I like 10 grow 5 ml bloom 5 ml boost 10 ml zym and 1 ml of amp it.

    also if your using 2 ml of amp it every watering that could be issue also. Also drain to waste is such a waste and so expensive and yields are less. I suggest getting some coco or soil and growing for real. The flavor is much better as well.

    also only foliar feed hard and quick is all you need. Foliar spraying with nutrients to boost plants etc causes all kinds of issues as well. Of liar sprays should be used as boosters or as a way to get quick absorption to plant for quick fix. Typically if you have issue, and you keep spraying, it’s gonna get worse.

     

     

    #41498

    Driverinthedank
    Participant

    I checked out your photos, I’m. to sure what these people are doing these days, way over thinking it, and trying to get to something. Get back to the basics. That’s system is very limited. Unless plants have time to sit in water and soak every day, they are getting a fraction of nutrients. Just because a plant grows in something or someway doesn’t make it good or right. Your need to put those plants in a normal pot and great as normal. No wonder I hardly ever see these drain to waste systems. And definitely  don’t trust runoff  readings from it. That kind of system also doesn’t need watering daily either from the looks of it. Oh man…..

    #41500

    whocares
    Participant

    @driverinthedank these plants are in veg under 24hr of light. Im a little confused by a couple of your statements.

    1. i am growing in coco. how am i know growing for real?

    2. im using r.o water and extra amp it is required according to the instructions.

    3. vegamatrix is designed for drain to waste use. correct? I dont reuse it, i simply use the 5 gal buckets to catch the runoff and i drain them 1x a week.

    4. do you keep referring to a flood and drain coco setup?

    5. what do you see in the pictures that indicated this system doesnt need to be watered everyday?

    #41502

    Driverinthedank
    Participant

    1. any type of drain to waste or hydroponic growing is not real growing, thats common sense. the only people who argue are hydroponics growers.

    2. do what you want but if your watering everyday i suggest using 1-1.25 ml per gal of amp it.

    3. vegamatix is designed for drain to waste but doesn’t mean its recommended.

    4. flood and drain can not do coco very well so no I’m not referring to that, sorry for typo.

    5. as far as what i see. its a 2 gal net in a 5 gal bucket. if water to much daily the roots gets lockout casings multiple issues. if watered to little then the water will travel to same areas and paths re wetting same spots. this will cause the plants roots to stop searching which causes smaller roots causing smaller yields, this will also cause patches of high nutrients which can cause issues. causes few other issues as well. as far as perfect everyday watering, thats almost impossible since you would have to know precise amount of water, nutrient and oxygen plants need daily. you just need to use 2 gallon pots with a tray and water every few days. you be doing better to saturated the basket and water every few days or when it says its dry.

    i started growing bout 16 years ago, luckily i got started before the market was saturated with crap knowledge on growing. most stuff nowadays is just thought of to sell magazines. go get a basic gardening book and follow it, everyone. when people get some really nice sweet delicious herb, its cause the people did the absolute basic. nothing like self teaching either though.

    #41503

    whocares
    Participant

    Thanks for replying. im trying to take in all your advice.

    So what do you consider real growing? soil im assuming?

    The mothers and many of the big plants in the room need to be watered atleast everyday. The moms sometimes get 2x per day. They would be bone dry if they didnt get it. (i will post pics of them in a minute)

    Prior to switching to vegamatrix i treated coco like soil and let it get super light between waterings. Thats when i seemed to have the worst issues with smaller plants. If they made it through transplant and rooted the pot they would turn out great. Since the switch to matrix and watering daily things looked awesome for about 2-3 weeks.

    From my understanding coco hold 30% oxygen so overwatering isnt supposed to be an issue. saturating a small plant and then trying to let it dry out always caused me problems and im assuming its because the plant used up all the available oxygen in the water and was basically left suffocating in damp coco. would you agree?

    Am i correct in assuming you say get away from the basket to slow down the dry out time?

    oh and i have been using amp-it at 1ml since day 1. Only since the start of this thread have i started using 2ml of amp-it. Thinking this is a iron deficiency.

     

     

    #41504

    Colorado Kid
    Participant

    Coco has the oxygen holding properties, in a flood and drain type scenario, in which the res is oxygenated, and the pots are allowed to wick up the water, or in a drip system. When you treat coco like soil, and water to saturation and runoff, the oxygen comes in as the moisture is removed from the soil. If your plants are in  oversized pots, “clown shoes”, you aren’t going to want to water to run off, Driver has taught me in that case you want to water with a solo cup worth or basically what the plants will use in 2-3 days. If you were to fully water to runoff, you fill in all the space in the coco where the oxygen will be with water. It gets displaced. After I water, like to lean my plants to get drain off extra water in the coco to help get more air in. By removing the excess it is replaced by air.

    #41505

    Colorado Kid
    Participant

    It looks something like this.

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    #41507

    Colorado Kid
    Participant

    The pot above is a 5 gal root maker pot, this lower pot is a #5 tall trade pot. I put 1/4″ holes in the sides spaced about 2.5″ apart to allow more air into the root zone. I get about 4-5 days between waterings.

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    #41509

    Colorado Kid
    Participant

    I was saying earlier to water small plants in big pots with solo cups, what I mean is to water enough that the plant will have water for a couple days, so maybe 1 cup, maybe 3 cups, but increase the amount as the plant grows, and once the roots have filled out the pot then water to run-off. If you have been feeding nutrients the whole time, you might want to flush the first time you water to run-off. Best bet though is to stay in appropriate sized pots. They should get you a couple days to a week between watering. But that’s just how I grow.

     

    #41577

    Driverinthedank
    Participant

    real growing is planting in traditional pots. using soil or soils mix. if a plant completely dries out in one day, it needs to be watered more or you need to repot the plant cause its root bound. if your watering every day with little amounts of water the root system will not spread proper. as far as plant size and watering, i typically wait till three internodes and start feeding otherwise they get plain tap water. if having issues in veg just feed half amounts or feed every other water. coco can hold oxygen but that doesn’t mean to water daily.

    if you think you have iron defiency put a nail in your reservoir or a nail in each pot of soil, this correct most with slow release. iron defiency is not common, this is probably associated with too wet or too dry of soil which either will cause issues.

    the baskets in a bucket is not a bad idea actually, its how they are used. the issue with those it, when you have to raise out of bucket, the light hits the roots causing slower growth and less yield. one would want to fully saturate each bucket, let dry, then do again.

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